In our conversation today we talk about some of the deepest challenges facing the church today. Our guest is Mike Cosper, author of the new book 'The Church in Dark Times,' and he's bringing this incredible framework from the philosopher Hannah Arendt to help us understand the dynamics at play. What Cosper lays out is how the church, much like broader society, has become susceptible to the lure of ideology - these seductive stories that promise meaning and purpose, but ultimately lead us astray. He traces this back to the unbundling of identity that's happened in modernity, where we've lost those deep roots and sense of transcendence that used to anchor us. And the way Cosper unpacks Arendt's insights on the 'banality of evil' is extremely helpful. The idea that the greatest horrors can emerge not from some monstrous, radical evil, but from this hollow, empty shell of a person - that's a profoundly unsettling concept with huge implications. But Cosper doesn't just diagnose the problem. He also points us towards practices of solitude, thinking, and storytelling that can help us resist these ideological forces and recover a more rooted, transcendent vision of what it means to be the church. It's a conversation that I think will really challenge and inspire anyone who cares about the future of Christianity in our time.

Mike Cosper has been creating music, radio shows, and podcasts for more than 20 years. He produced and hosted The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast and is director of podcasts at Christianity Today. He now cohosts a weekly podcast called The Bulletin. Cosper also leads cohorts for church leaders and is the author of four books, including Recapturing the Wonder. He and his family live in Louisville, Kentucky.

Mike's Book:
The Church in Dark Times

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In this conversation we get to the heart of the divisions and fractures we're seeing in our society and in the church. Heather Gorman and Mark Nelson, the authors of the book "Lunchroom Theology," paint a vivid picture of the polarization all around us - the way we sort ourselves into different tables and groups, often suspicious or distrustful of those who aren't like us. But what's so compelling is how Heather and Mark point us back to the radical, subversive vision of Jesus - the way he broke down barriers, invited the unexpected to his table, and called his followers to a radical unity. They unpack how the early church struggled with this, but also found creative, improvisational ways to live it out. Ultimately, this is a conversation about recovering the imagination to see the world differently, to tell better stories, and to participate in the restoration that Jesus inaugurated. It's a call to intellectual humility, to curiosity about those who are different from us, and to a faith that is rooted in the mystery and wonder of God, not just a set of propositions. Heather and Mark offer a compelling alternative to the fear-driven, tribal mentality that so often dominates our public discourse. It's a vision of community, of neighbor-love, of pushing tables together - even when it's messy and uncomfortable. This is the kind of conversation we need more of. Join us at the table.

Mark Nelson and Heather Gorman co-authored Lunchroom Theology: Pushing Tables Together in a Fractured World.

Mark is the executive director of Three Rivers Collaborative and a coauthor of Reframation: Seeing God, People, and Mission Through Reenchanted Frames with Alan Hirsch. Mark is the founding pastor of Crossings, a faith community in Knoxville, Tennessee, where he served for fifteen years.

Heather (PhD, Baylor University) is Professor of New Testament at Johnson University and author of Interweaving Innocence: A Rhetorical Analysis of Luke’s Passion Narrative as well as numerous journal articles and essays on the Gospels, Acts, ancient rhetoric, and reception history.

Heather & Mark's Book:
Lunchroom Theology

Heather's Recommendation:
The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory

Mark's Recommendation:
A Burning in my Bones

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Today we have a fascinating conversation with Christian ethicist David Gushee about the moral teachings of Jesus. Gushee has spent decades wrestling with how to faithfully apply Jesus' radical vision for the kingdom of God in our modern context. What struck me most in our discussion was Gushee's insistence that Jesus' ethics are not merely aspirational, but profoundly subversive to the status quo. Jesus challenges our assumptions about power, wealth, tradition, and social status - calling us to a radical reorientation of our values and priorities. Gushee highlights key themes like Jesus' concern for the marginalized, his critique of religious and cultural traditions that exclude, and his vision of freedom that is not beholden to the expectations of others. It's a challenging message, but one that Gushee believes the church desperately needs to recover if we are to faithfully follow in the way of Jesus. This is a conversation that will make you think deeply about what it means to live as a disciple of Christ in our modern world. Gushee doesn't offer easy answers, but he compellingly lays out Jesus' moral vision and invites us to wrestle with its radical implications. I found it both inspiring and convicting - I hope you will as well.

Rev. Prof. Dr. David P. Gushee (PhD, Union Theological Seminary, New York) is Distinguished University Professor of Christian Ethics at Mercer University, and Chair of Christian Social Ethics at Vrije Universiteit (“Free University”) Amsterdam, and Senior Research Fellow, International Baptist Theological Study Centre.

Gushee is the elected Past-President of both the American Academy of Religion and the Society of Christian Ethics, signaling his role as one of America's leading Christian ethicists. He is the author, co-author, editor, or co-editor of more than 29 books and over 175 academic book chapters, journal articles, and reviews. His most recognized works include Kingdom Ethics, and Changing Our Mind. His other most notable works are Introducing Christian Ethics, Still Christian, After Evangelicalism, Righteous Gentiles of the Holocaust, Defending Democracy from Its Christian Enemies and recently The Moral Teachings of Jesus. Altogether his books have sold over 100,000 copies and been translated into a dozen languages.

David and his wife Jeanie live in Atlanta. He is a classic novel reader, world traveler, and tennis player, and awaits a call from his beloved Atlanta Braves to resume the baseball career he abandoned in college.

David's Book:
The Moral Teachings of Jesus

David's Recommendation:
Illiberal America

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The conversation today gets at the heart of our modern mental health crisis. Richard Beck, author of the new book 'The Shape of Joy,' takes us into how our cultural obsession with introspection and the pursuit of self-esteem has undermined our wellbeing. He traces this back to key philosophical and psychological figures like Descartes and Freud, who ushered in this inward turn. He shows how this has led to excessive rumination, a fragile sense of self-worth tied to external achievements, and an inability to find true meaning and joy. But the real power of this conversation is in how Beck points us towards an alternative - a path of transcendence, of finding our identity and security in something greater than ourselves. He unpacks the psychological benefits of gratitude, awe, and spiritual connection. And he challenges us to move beyond just insight and self-analysis, towards more embodied, experiential ways of cultivating wellbeing. It's a rich discussion that gets at the heart of our modern malaise and points towards a more joyful and grounded way of being. A conversation worth diving into.

Richard Beck (PhD) is Professor of Psychology and Senior Fellow of the Landon Saunders Center for Joy and Human Flourishing at Abilene Christian University. Richard also teaches in the Doctor of Ministry programs at Fuller Theological Seminary and Abilene Christian University.

During his teaching career, Richard has been honored twice as ACU Teacher of the Year. Richard has also been recognized as Honors Teacher of the Year and has won the College of Arts and Sciences Classroom Teaching award and Faith Integration award.

Outside of the classroom, Richard travels the world as a sought after speaker and an award-winning blogger and author.

To explore speaking engagements for your church or organization email beckr@acu.edu.

Richard's Book:
The Shape of Joy

Richard's Recommendations:
All Things Are Full of Gods
The Penguin

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In this episode, Stephanie Duncan Smith takes us on a profound journey through grief, loss, and the resilience required to open ourselves up to love again. She beautifully weaves together themes of time, the liturgical calendar, and the radical empathy of a God who meets us in every moment - whether joyful or sorrowful. Stephanie shares her own experiences with pregnancy loss, and how she grappled with the dissonance of everyday life and the world's expectations in the midst of her grief. She redefines resilience not as "overcoming," but as the ability to hold joy and sorrow together, to live in the uncomfortable tension. This conversation is a masterclass in finding hope, courage and the freedom to feel the full range of human emotion, even in the darkest of times. Stephanie's words offer a path forward for anyone who has experienced profound loss, and a reminder that love is always worth the risk.

Stephanie Duncan Smith is a writer and senior editor at HarperOne who has spent her career developing award-winning and bestselling authors. She is the creator of Slant Letter, a bestselling Substack email newsletter for writers looking to deepen their craft and do it in style. Duncan Smith completed her master’s in theology at Western Theological Seminary, where she was the winner of the Frederick Buechner Prize for Excellence in Writing. She lives with her husband, Zach, a professor, and their two children in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Stephanie's Book:
Even After Everything

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Today, we have a fantastic conversation with Hal Donaldson, the founder and president of Convoy of Hope, a global humanitarian organization that has helped over 200 million people in need. Hal has an incredible personal story - growing up in poverty after his father was tragically killed, experiencing the kindness of strangers, and then feeling called to dedicate his life to serving the poor and marginalized. What I found so compelling about this conversation is how Hal has wrestled with the tension between ambition, drive, and burnout. As Convoy of Hope has grown into one of the largest charities in the US, Hal has had to learn hard lessons about the importance of self-care, boundaries, and staying grounded in his relationship with God. He shares practical tips he's implemented, like no problem-solving after 8pm, no dinner meetings, and protecting vacation time. Hal also reflects deeply on the role of humility and dependence on God for leaders - how success can actually be more dangerous than failure, if it leads to self-reliance. His insights on the difference between acting humble and truly embodying a humble spirit are really thought-provoking. Ultimately, this is a conversation about how to sustain a life of service and compassion over the long haul. Hal has some hard-won wisdom to share, and I think his story will resonate with anyone trying to make a difference in the world while also caring for their own wellbeing. It's a delicate balance, but one that Hal has clearly wrestled with and learned from.

Hal Donaldson is the founder and CEO of Convoy of Hope, a nonprofit organization that leads humanitarian initiatives across the United States and around the world. The author of more than 30 books, Hal has degrees in journalism and biblical studies. He and his wife, Doree, have four daughters.

Hal's Book:
What Really Matters

Hal's Recommendation:
The Lincoln Conspiracy

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Today, we have a fascinating conversation about a figure who has long been misunderstood and overlooked in the Christian tradition - Mary Magdalene. Our guest is Jennifer Powell McNutt, a scholar of church history and theology who has dedicated years to uncovering the true story of this remarkable woman. As Jennifer explains, Mary Magdalene was not just a penitent prostitute, as she's often been portrayed, but a devoted disciple of Jesus, one of the women who traveled with him and financially supported his ministry. She was present at the crucifixion, the first witness to the resurrection, and the one Jesus chose to send back to the other disciples with the news. In many ways, she was the "apostle to the apostles." Yet her story has been obscured and distorted over centuries of Christian history, shaped by cultural biases and theological agendas. Jennifer takes us on a deep dive into the Gospels and the complex history of how Mary Magdalene has been remembered - and forgotten - in the church. It's a rich and illuminating conversation that challenges us to reconsider what we think we know about this pivotal figure and her significance for our understanding of Jesus and the early Christian movement. I think you'll find it as fascinating as I did.

Jennifer Powell McNutt (PhD, The University of St. Andrews) is the Franklin S. Dyrness Chair of Biblical and Theological Studies and Professor of theology and history of Christianity at Wheaton College. She is an award-winning author, a fellow of the Royal Historical Society, an ordained teaching elder in the Presbyterian church, and a fellow of the Center for Pastor Theologians.

Jennifer's Book:
The Mary We Forgot

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In this conversation, Russ Ramsey talks about the power of art, beauty, and storytelling - and how they can help us make sense of the brokenness in our world. Russ is the author of books like "Rembrandt is in the Wind" and "Van Gogh Has a Broken Heart," where he dives into the lives and works of these iconic artists. And what he uncovers is so much more than just the paintings themselves. It's about the human experience - the joy, the suffering, the hope that these artists poured into their art. We talk about how engaging with beauty and art, can actually be a window into understanding the glory of God. And how even in the midst of tragedy and heartbreak, art can help us find language for our own struggles and emotions. Russ also shares some incredible stories behind famous works of art - like the Mona Lisa and why it became so famous. Spoiler alert: it's not because of the painting itself! So get ready for a rich, thought-provoking conversation about the intersection of faith, art, and the human experience. Russ has so much wisdom to share, so join us.

Russ Ramsey grew up in the wheatfields of Indiana. He studied at Taylor University and Covenant Theological Seminary (MDiv, ThM) before becoming a pastor. He and his family live in Franklin, Tennessee. Russ is the author of Van Gogh has a Broken Heart: What Art Teaches Us About the Wonder and Struggle of Being Alive (Zondervan 2024) and Rembrandt is in the Wind: Learning to Love Art through the Eyes of Faith (Zondervan, 2022).

Russ' Book:
Van Gogh Has a Broken Heart

Russ' Recommendation:
Mary Oliver

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