Today, we're exploring the hidden history of women in ministry through the lens of the pastor's wife role. Historian Beth Allison Barr takes us on a journey that challenges everything we think we know about women's leadership in the church. We'll trace how women went from being active leaders in the early Christian church to being systematically pushed out of ministry. Barr reveals how the pastor's wife role evolved from a radical act of Protestant resistance to a complex system that both empowered and constrained women. The conversation digs into some tough terrain - how complementarian theology has created environments where women's ministry is limited, and in some cases, where abuse has been hidden. But it's not just a story of limitation. It's a powerful call for reimagining how men and women can work together in ministry. At its heart, this is a conversation about breaking down barriers, recognizing historical complicity, and creating spaces where all people can fully express their calling - regardless of gender. We'll explore how the Southern Baptist Convention became a flashpoint for these debates, why ordination became a weapon against women's leadership, and most importantly, how we might move forward toward mutual flourishing in church communities. Get ready for a conversation that challenges, enlightens, and offers a hopeful vision for the future of ministry.

Beth Allison Barr (PhD, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill) is James Vardaman Endowed Chair of History at Baylor University in Waco, Texas, where she specializes in medieval history, women’s history, and church history. She is the author of the USA Today bestseller The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth. Her work has been featured by NPR and the New Yorker, and she has written for Christianity Today, the Washington Post, The Dallas Morning News, Sojourners, and Baptist News Global. Barr lives in Texas with her husband, a Baptist pastor, and their two children.

Beth's Book:

Becoming the Pastor's Wife

Beth's Recommendations:

The Anti-Greed Gospel

We Refuse

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In our current moment of cultural fragmentation and existential anxiety, the traditional frameworks of engagement feel increasingly inadequate. Andrew Root's latest work, “Evangelism in an Age of Despair” isn't just a theological treatise, or a how-to evangelism book, but a profound meditation on human connection in an age of profound disconnection. What happens when we shift our understanding of evangelism from a transactional model of belief to a relational practice of genuine with-ness? Andy suggests something more radical than conversion: a form of spiritual presence that honors the complexity of human suffering. We're living through an era where loneliness has become a systemic condition, where happiness is marketed as a consumable product, and where genuine human vulnerability is increasingly rare. Root's approach doesn't offer easy solutions, but instead proposes a more nuanced engagement with our collective pain. This conversation is less about religious doctrine and more about the fundamental human need for meaningful connection - a need that transcends ideological boundaries and touches something more elemental about how we understand ourselves and each other. Join us as we seek the consolation of Christ in the desolation of our lives.

Andrew Root (Ph.D., Princeton Theological Seminary) is the Carrie Olson Baalson professor of youth and family ministry at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Andrew Root is the Carrie Olson Baalson Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary, USA. He writes and researches in areas of theology, ministry, culture and younger generations. His most recent books are Churches and the Crisis of Decline (Baker, 2022), The Congregation in a Secular Age (Baker, 2021), The End of Youth Ministry? (Baker, 2020), The Pastor in a Secular Age: Ministry to People Who No Longer Need God (Baker, 2019), Faith Formation in a Secular Age (Baker, 2017), and Exploding Stars, Dead Dinosaurs, and Zombies: Youth Ministry in the Age of Science (Fortress Press, 2018). Andy has worked in congregations, parachurch ministries, and social service programs. He lives in St. Paul with his wife Kara, two children, Owen and Maisy, and their dog. When not reading, writing, or teaching, Andy spends far too much time watching TV and movies.

Andrew's Book:
Evangelism in an Age of Despair

Andrew's Recommendation:
Severance

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Matthew Bates joins us today to work out salvation. What is it? What have we got wrong? In our contemporary moment, we find ourselves wrestling with a profound misunderstanding of the gospel - a narrative that has been truncated, individualized, and stripped of its royal, communal essence. The gospel is not merely a personal transaction about individual salvation, but a comprehensive royal announcement about Jesus the Christ. For too long, both Protestant and Catholic traditions have inadvertently narrowed the expansive biblical vision of salvation. We've reduced faith to mental assent or ritualistic practice, when in reality, faith is fundamentally about allegiance - a comprehensive, embodied loyalty to King Jesus that transforms not just individuals, but entire communities and, ultimately, all of creation. Matthew seeks to recover a more holistic understanding. We are saved not just from something, but for something: the full restoration of our image-bearing capacity, the renewal of God's glory in and through us. This isn't about personal spiritual escapism, but about participating in a cosmic restoration project. In our conversation today, we'll explore how reimagining salvation as allegiance can bridge denominational divides, challenge our narcissistic cultural assumptions, and invite us into a more profound understanding of discipleship. We're not just talking about theological abstractions, but about a transformative way of being in the world. Prepare to have your understanding of the gospel radically expanded.

Matthew W. Bates is Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary. His books have won top honors from Christianity Today, Outreach Magazine, Jesus Creed, and Englewood Review. When he isn't hiking, baseballing, or chasing his seven children, he co-hosts the OnScript podcast. A Protestant by conviction, Bates holds a PhD in theology (New Testament) from the University of Notre Dame. His popular titles include Salvation by Allegiance Alone, Why the Gospel?, The Gospel Precisely, and The Birth of the Trinity. He lives with his family in Quincy, Illinois. Learn more about his books, lectures, or conference-speaking at MatthewWBates.com.

Matthew's Book:

Beyond the Salvation Wars

Matthew's Recommendations:

The Affections of Christ Jesus

Renovation of the Heart

The Great Divorce

The Deeply Formed Life

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