Episodes

  • 135: Pranav Piyush: Why multi-touch attribution is broken and what you should do instead

    135: Pranav Piyush: Why multi-touch attribution is broken and what you should do instead
    Sep 3 2024
    What’s up everyone, today I have the pleasure of sitting down with Pranav Piyush, Co-Founder and CEO at Paramark. Summary: Pranav guides us out of the labyrinth of multi-touch attribution under the clear sky of incrementality and causality, urging marketers to focus on whether their efforts genuinely drive sales that wouldn’t happen otherwise. Early-stage startups can benefit by prioritizing simple methods like geo-based testing over complex attribution models, allowing intuition to guide resourceful experimentation. By understanding the underlying motivations and true causality behind customer actions, marketers can craft campaigns that resonate deeply and drive real results. As businesses grow, balancing intuition with structured analytics becomes crucial. Holdout tests and marketing mix modeling provide actionable insights, ensuring strategies remain effective in a competitive landscape. This approach transforms marketing from a cost into an investment in sustainable growth, making each dollar count.About PranavPranav started his career at well known brands like PayPal and DropboxHe co-founded Padlet, the popular collaboration app to make school less boringHe’s former Head of Growth at Magento and Pilot.com before becoming VP of Marketing at BILLHe’s also a Reforge Instructor for a new marketing measurement courseAnd in March of last year, Pranav co-founded Paramark to help marketers measure and forecast the impact of their investmentsWhat’s More Valuable? Analytical Skills or Creative Taste?Marketing's creative nature often gets overshadowed by the obsession with data. Recently, HubSpot’s co-founder Brian Halligan suggested that marketers with good taste are undervalued compared to those with analytical skills. Pranav agrees, arguing that creativity now drives the most significant impact in marketing. We often question the overuse of the term "data-driven" in marketing, suggesting a shift towards being more "creatively driven." Pranav responds, arguing that data-driven and data-informed are all kind of bullshit. Relying solely on being "data-informed" is not sufficient. He emphasizes that without the ability to discern the success of a creative idea through data, creativity alone falls short.Marketers face the challenge of making memorable impressions on people they've never met, and this requires innovation and creativity. While data is essential, Pranav notes that many marketers don't truly understand the depth of analytical skills. True data literacy involves grasping complex concepts like correlation and causation, which are often missing in marketers' education. Pranav points out that the dichotomy between creativity and analytics is overly simplistic. Marketers need to integrate both skills. This blend is crucial not only in marketing but in other business functions like product development. He uses the example of launching a feature and gauging its success. If only 10% of the customer base uses it, understanding the broader impact on adoption, revenue, and retention is essential.Despite recognizing the importance of analytical skills, Pranav emphasizes that good taste in marketing offers a unique advantage. Creativity leads to building compelling campaigns that resonate more profoundly with audiences. This insight suggests that while data provides valuable insights, it is creativity that ultimately distinguishes successful marketing efforts. Pranav further highlights the importance of rigorous testing and measurement. A successful feature or campaign isn't just about positive feedback; it needs to contribute to tangible business outcomes, such as increased revenue or cost savings. Without proper measurement, the value of creative initiatives remains unclear.Key takeaway: To truly excel in marketing, you need to embrace a harmonious balance between analytical skills and creative taste. This means honing your ability to interpret data while also nurturing your creative instincts to craft memorable campaigns. Instead of relying solely on data or creativity, focus on integrating these skills. Use data to measure the success of your creative ideas, ensuring they lead to meaningful business outcomes like increased revenue or customer retention. By blending data literacy with creative insight, you'll develop campaigns that resonate deeply and drive tangible results.Understanding Incrementality in MarketingWe often hear marketers claiming they understand ROI and reporting, yet the concept of incrementality often eludes them. Pranav sheds light on this by differentiating between attribution and incrementality. Attribution, as he explains, is rooted in the idea of cause and effect. However, its usage has been diluted over time, losing its original meaning.Pranav appreciates our provided definition of incrementality: business results from marketing campaigns or channels that wouldn’t have occurred otherwise. He elaborates that if a prospect would have purchased a product without the ...
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    54 mins
  • 134: Jacqueline Freedman: Former leader at Grammarly and WeWork on how to become a trusted Martech advisor

    134: Jacqueline Freedman: Former leader at Grammarly and WeWork on how to become a trusted Martech advisor
    Aug 27 2024
    What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Jacqueline Freedman, CEO and Founder at Monarch Advisory Partners. Summary: Jacqueline straps on her jetpack and invites us to soar through the martech skies, teaching us how to navigate the journey of becoming an independent martech advisor. From hands-on execution tasks strategy and advisory projects and assembling a futuristic composable martech stack, we cover a lot of air miles. We navigate the build versus buy decision in martech, the realities of composable CDPs and embracing user-friendly modern marketing automation tools.About JacquelineJacqueline started her career in Account and relationship management before joining WeWork where she would eventually settle into a Global Engagement Marketing and Operations Manager role as the fifth marketing hire during the company’s hyper-growth She later joined an email and lifecycle growth agency as the 2nd team member and built out their NYC office where she worked with startups ranging from seed to series CShe then moved over to Grammarly as the founding Marketing Operations hire where she built out the B2B MOPs team and led their marketing technology stack to support their transition to a B2B2C companyAnd recently Jacqueline strapped on her jetpack and went out on her own as a solopreneur founding Monarch Advisory Partners, a full-stack Marketing Ops and Martech consultancyWhy Introspection is the Secret Weapon for Aspiring EntrepreneursJacqueline, reflecting on her transition from Grammarly to entrepreneurship, reveals the depth of her decision-making process. With a family history rooted in entrepreneurship, Jacqueline always envisioned herself running her own business. Observing her father and grandfather, she felt like she had a front-row seat to an MBA. This early exposure planted the seed of entrepreneurship, but it wasn’t until she recognized her unique skill set that she felt truly ready to take the plunge.The decision wasn’t impulsive. Jacqueline emphasized the role of introspection and reflection in her journey. She spent a year contemplating the right moment, fueled by her natural tendency to overthink. Through late nights and early mornings, she assessed her career achievements, from scaling WeWork during its prime to steering Grammarly’s shift to B2C. These experiences solidified her belief in her capabilities, leading her to recognize that she was ready for the entrepreneurial leap.Jacqueline’s courage was also bolstered by her practical approach. While at Grammarly, she had already begun advising several founders, driven by her passion for problem-solving rather than monetary gain. These conversations not only honed her skills but also provided a soft landing into entrepreneurship. By the time she officially launched her business, she had a lineup of clients ready, thanks to her reputation and the support of colleagues and partners who championed her abilities.Her journey highlights the importance of strategic preparation and the value of building a strong professional network. Jacqueline’s story is a testament to how a combination of introspection, practical experience, and a supportive community can make a significant career transition smoother and more successful.Key takeaway: Use introspection to identify your unique skills and career achievements. Reflecting on these aspects will not only boost your confidence but also clarify your readiness for major career changes, like transitioning to entrepreneurship.How TV Dramatization Barely Scratches WeWork's RealityWhen asked about the accuracy of the WeWork TV show "WeCrashed" on Apple TV, Jacqueline offered a candid perspective. Having watched all the content related to WeWork, she noted that "WeCrashed" starring Jared Leto and Anne Hathaway, came closest to capturing the essence of the events. However, she emphasized that the series only scratched the surface of what truly transpired.Jacqueline explained that while the series contained a kernel of truth, the actual events at WeWork were far more intense. Everything depicted in the show was amplified tenfold in reality. This amplification was very much in line with WeWork's brand, known for its high-energy and sometimes chaotic environment. She described her experience of watching the dramatization as somewhat PTSD-inducing due to its accuracy in portraying the underlying ethos of WeWork.Despite the dramatization, Jacqueline found it fascinating and somewhat validating to see the story unfold on screen. The series succeeded in conveying the core truth of WeWork's journey, even if it couldn't fully encapsulate the extremities of the real-life scenarios. For Jacqueline, revisiting those memories through the show was a mixed experience, balancing between validation and the resurfacing of intense memories.Her insights underscore the dramatic nature of WeWork’s history and how media adaptations, while engaging, often have to simplify or condense reality. For ...
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    57 mins
  • 133: Simon Heaton: Buffer’s Director of Growth Marketing on agile sprints, holdout testing and why a CRM or GA4 isn't in their tech stack

    133: Simon Heaton: Buffer’s Director of Growth Marketing on agile sprints, holdout testing and why a CRM or GA4 isn't in their tech stack
    Aug 20 2024
    What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Simon Heaton, Director of Growth Marketing at Buffer. Summary: Simon helps us explore Buffer's martech journey, highlighting their shift from traditional tools to a product-led approach driven by data and server-side analytics. We unpack their use of Customer.io for automation and hold out testing, Redash for data insights, and their agile sprint model that fosters continuous innovation. Discover how Buffer's small team thrives with efficient, data-driven strategies.About SimonSimon started his career in the agency world at Banfield in Ottawa, CanadaHe later moved over to Shopify where he would spend nearly 7 years, first as a content Marketing Manager and later as the Senior Growth Lead, AcquisitionSimon’s also worn a part-time teaching hat for over 5 years, he was an Instructor with Telfer School of Management at UofO as well as a Professor at Algonquin CollegeHe’s a startup mentor for founders that are part of the Singapore-based equity fund at AntlerToday Simon is Director of Growth Marketing at Buffer, the world-renowned social media management platformBuffer’s Marketing Tech Stack and Why it Doesn’t Include a CRMBuffer’s marketing strategy is unique. They don’t use a traditional CRM like HubSpot or Salesforce. Simon explains that Buffer is a product-led company without a dedicated sales team. This means they don't need typical CRM functionalities like lead routing and scoring. Instead, Buffer relies heavily on data and product analytics to drive their marketing efforts.The core of Buffer’s operations is their data warehouse, with Segment acting as their Customer Data Platform (CDP). This setup allows Buffer to integrate various tools and centralize crucial information. Mixpanel, their product analytics tool, is pivotal in this system. It gathers both product usage and marketing data, providing a comprehensive view of user interactions.Simon highlights the importance of server-side tracking and integrating data from diverse sources such as AdWords, Customer.io, and Pendo. This integration helps Buffer understand the user lifecycle and measure the impact of marketing efforts beyond basic website metrics.Tools like Customer.io are also essential for Buffer. It manages most user communications, making it a critical component of their stack. The combination of Mixpanel, Customer.io, and other integrated tools ensures that Buffer can seamlessly track and analyze user behavior.Key takeaway: Not all B2B companies need a CRM or a sales team. A product-led approach, using robust data and product analytics tools, can effectively drive your marketing efforts and provide comprehensive insights into user behavior.The Power of a Visual and Intuitive Automation Flow InterfaceSimon loves working in a smaller team like Buffer, where he can get hands-on with their tools daily. He highlights how Buffer uses Customer.io for their marketing automation, a tool he's familiar with from his previous experience at Shopify. Unlike Shopify, which eventually switched to Salesforce Marketing Cloud for more enterprise-level needs, Buffer continues to thrive with Customer.io.Buffer relies on Customer.io to manage email marketing, push notifications for mobile apps, and various communication programs. Simon appreciates how the tool handles both marketing and transactional communications, offering a unified view of user interactions. This integration ensures consistency in messages, whether they're marketing emails or product notifications.Simon praises Customer.io's user-friendly interface, especially the journey mapping functionality and the WYSIWYG editor, which make it accessible for non-technical team members. Despite its ease of use, the platform also boasts deep technical capabilities, allowing for extensive customization through HTML and API integrations. This flexibility has been crucial for Buffer's needs.The integration with Segment, Buffer's Customer Data Platform (CDP), is particularly valuable. Simon emphasizes that having all data in Segment and seamlessly integrating it with Customer.io enables precise data handling. This setup ensures accurate and timely data flow, essential for personalized and effective marketing automation workflows.Key takeaway: Even as a small team, you can effectively manage complex marketing automation needs by choosing user-friendly tools like Customer.io that offer both simplicity and deep customization. This approach allows your non-technical team members to contribute meaningfully while ensuring your technical needs are met, enhancing overall efficiency and personalization in your communications.Experimentation and Holdout Testing at BufferExperimentation is a cornerstone of Buffer’s approach, and Simon is particularly enthusiastic about the capabilities provided by Customer.io. He explains that the platform's holdout testing functionality is essential for validating new programs and comparing campaign...
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    1 hr and 4 mins
  • 132: Ashleigh Johnson: Tales of a Marketing Technologist from Microsoft

    132: Ashleigh Johnson: Tales of a Marketing Technologist from Microsoft
    Aug 13 2024
    What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Ashleigh Johnson, Marketing Technologist at Microsoft. Summary: Ashleigh gives us a glimpse into the enterprise world of martech, and it might not be what you’re expecting. She emphasizes embracing the unexpected by seeking diverse roles and rotational programs. Building a personal network within large organizations like Microsoft is crucial for navigating corporate silos. Curiosity and people skills, including shadowing colleagues and effective communication, are paramount. Ashleigh highlights the need for robust documentation and the strategic use of AI for routine tasks to boost productivity. Finally, she advocates for marketers to lead AI deployment, ensuring flexibility and innovation by empowering tool owners to make technology-driven decisions.About AshleighAshleigh started her career at Trend Micro, a global cybersecurity company as a Sales and Marketing Associate with rotations as a Lead Qualification Rep, then a Marketing Coordinator and finally a marketing Ops and Automation associateEventually she would get promoted to Marketing Automation Manager where she was responsible for all things building, QA and campaigns across a variety of martechShe then took on the role of Senior Marketing Operations Manager at Cornerstone OnDemand, a talent experience platform where she rolled out a Content Intelligence tool and a Webinar engagement platformToday Ashleigh is Marketing Technologist at Microsoft on their Platform Operations team where she strategizes and consults on how the martech stack is used across different workstreams of the businessEmbracing Openness in Marketing CareersAshleigh highlights the significance of being open-minded in the marketing industry. She reflects on her early career, noting that she had no idea what martech was when she started. College had prepared her for traditional marketing roles—branding, PR, content management—not martech. She envisioned a straightforward path in these areas but ended up somewhere entirely different.Her entry into martech came by chance, thanks to a rotation program at Trend. This experience unveiled a whole new side of marketing she hadn’t considered. Ashleigh stresses that there’s much more to marketing than what college teaches. She urges young professionals and students to stay open to various roles and experiences.Ashleigh advises against the narrow approach of targeting only specific job types based on college education. She encourages a broader perspective, exploring different facets of marketing, and being receptive to opportunities that might initially seem outside one's defined path. This openness can lead to surprising and rewarding career paths, as it did for her.Her journey exemplifies the benefits of keeping career options open and exploring the full spectrum of the marketing industry. By stepping outside conventional boundaries, one can discover new and exciting opportunities in martech and beyond.Key takeaway: Embrace the unexpected by diversifying your job search beyond traditional roles. Actively seek out rotational programs or internships that expose you to different facets of marketing. This strategy will help you uncover hidden opportunities and potentially lead to a more fulfilling and dynamic career path.Navigating Martech Silos at Giant CorporationsWorking at a behemoth like Microsoft offers a unique perspective on martech operations. Ashleigh, who has been with the company for two and a half years, admits that the scale still overwhelms her. Coming from smaller enterprises where she handled marketing operations for the entire company, the shift to Microsoft’s segmented structure has been significant.At her previous companies, Ashleigh was part of small, global marketing ops teams, typically ranging from three to seven people. These teams managed the martech stack across the entire organization. In stark contrast, Microsoft’s martech environment is vast and compartmentalized. Multiple teams handle different aspects, and Ashleigh often finds it challenging to keep track of all the players and their roles.Ashleigh's current role focuses on supporting enterprise cloud products and services, specifically in a pre-sales capacity. There are separate teams for post-sales, gaming, hardware, and other areas, each with their own martech stacks and operations. The sheer size of the company means that even after years, she doesn’t know all the teams or their specific functions.Adjusting to this environment has required a significant mindset shift for Ashleigh. She’s accustomed to having a comprehensive view of martech operations, working closely with marketing and sales, and understanding the big picture. At Microsoft, she’s had to accept a more siloed view, focusing on her specific area and recognizing that she won't have visibility into all parts of the company. It’s a continuous learning process, and embracing this limited scope has been a ...
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    46 mins
  • 131: Siobhan Solberg: A guide to ethical marketing with data minimization and privacy strategies

    131: Siobhan Solberg: A guide to ethical marketing with data minimization and privacy strategies
    Aug 6 2024
    What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Siobhan Solberg, data privacy consultant and advisor. Summary: Siobhan takes on a behind-the-scenes look at the hidden mechanics of data privacy, ethical marketing practices, and effective data management. Marketers often overlook the importance of data privacy, but the increase in data breaches shows that people do care about their data. To address this, marketers should experience tools from the customer’s perspective, implement regular data reviews, and foster collaboration between marketing and compliance teams. By breaking down the user journey into distinct phases, they can attribute value more effectively while minimizing data collection. Focusing on key metrics and regularly auditing for dark patterns will enhance user experience without deception. Prioritizing ethical practices and transparency builds trust and leads to more informed decisions and stronger customer relationships.About SiobhanSiobhan started her career as a classical musician in NY where she had various teaching roles, specializing in violin and violaSiobhan later moved abroad and pivoted to a content role at a media agency where she would spend almost 4 years working her way up to CRO Manager and later Head of BI & Optimization and finally CMOShe completed her Certified Information Privacy Manager and joined an accelerator programOn the back of this experience, Siobhan founded Raze a niche agency specializing solely in the measurement and optimisation of marketing data – which she ran for 5 successful yearsShe’s also the co-host of Marketing Unfucked, a podcast about all things data, ethics and privacy for marketing She’s currently studying towards an Advanced Masters of Laws in Privacy, Cybersecurity and Data ManagementToday she’s working as a data privacy consultant and advisor to tech startups who want to get it right from the startPrivacy Concerns and Cultural Differences in Data HandlingSiobhan dives straight into the issue of privacy and its varying levels of importance across different regions. She highlights a stark contrast between the United States and the European Union regarding privacy regulations and cultural attitudes. In the US, the adoption of stringent privacy measures lags significantly, partly due to cultural differences and the absence of comprehensive regulations. This has allowed some companies to exploit these gaps by selling data products that would be deemed illegal in many other parts of the world.When asked about the prevalence of tools that exploit privacy laws and whether people genuinely care about their personal data being resold, Siobhan points out an interesting dichotomy. She references studies, particularly from the Netherlands, showing that while many people claim to care about privacy, their actions often tell a different story. There is a significant gap between expressing concern for privacy and taking concrete steps to protect it.Siobhan believes that at a deeper level, everyone does care about their privacy. She mentions the common justification of having "nothing to hide" as a coping mechanism for the lack of control individuals feel over their personal data. This helplessness leads many to adopt a nonchalant attitude towards privacy. However, as incidents of data misuse and the ramifications of lost privacy become more apparent, even those previously indifferent are beginning to take notice.In the European Union, the implementation of strict privacy regulations has fostered a culture of awareness and proactive measures. This early adoption has forced companies and individuals to prioritize privacy. Conversely, in the US, the conversation is only now gaining momentum, driven by emerging state regulations and the increasing misuse of personal data through advanced technologies like AI. This growing awareness is slowly shifting the cultural landscape towards a more privacy-conscious mindset.Key takeaway: Challenge the notion that people don't care about privacy. Actively take steps to protect your data and demand transparency from companies, as the growing awareness and incidents of data misuse show that everyone values their privacy more than they might admit.Why Marketers Must Rethink Privacy and Ethical PracticesSiobhan gets straight to the heart of ethical marketing. Marketers often face the challenge of using tools that skirt privacy laws. The advice she offers is simple: put yourself in the customer's shoes. She believes this empathetic approach is crucial. It’s a lesson we teach kids about bullying—how would you feel if it happened to you? Marketers should apply the same principle to their practices.When asked about using questionable tools, Siobhan emphasizes the need to consider personal feelings. How would you feel if your email was shared without consent? Or if your personal information was used to cold email you? Most people wouldn’t appreciate it. Marketers need to step back and think ...
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    54 mins
  • 130: Sam Oh: Ahref’s VP of Marketing on how content marketers can stay relevant with AI

    130: Sam Oh: Ahref’s VP of Marketing on how content marketers can stay relevant with AI
    Jul 30 2024
    What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Sam Oh, VP of Marketing at Ahrefs. Summary: Sam takes us on a masterclass covering SEO fundamentals, evolving search behaviors, AI in content marketing, refreshing attribution thoughts and work-life balance strategies. He advises sticking to proven SEO fundamentals and understanding search intent to meet audience needs. As search behavior evolves with tools like ChatGPT, he highlights the need for a diversified strategy across multiple platforms. He advocates for thoughtful AI integration to enhance research and streamline content creation. Finally, Sam shares Ahrefs' approach of prioritizing product quality and user-centric content over detailed attribution models, focusing on broad success indicators for effective decision-making and a fulfilling professional life.About SamAs a fresh Toronto grad out of University, Sam started a service based ecommerce site and got into black hat SEOHe grew traffic to this site and eventually sold it, this led Sam to “retire” – briefly – before experimenting with niche sites – he had one of those also acquiredHe also built an Amazon and Ebay business, where he would buy pallets of return goods from big merchandise stores and started a refurbishing center and reselling those goods online while sharpening his SEO skillsHe founded Money Journal where he published long form guides to help entrepreneurs grow their traffic and drive revenueThis naturally led Sam to co-founding a successful SEO and digital agency… but after a while, he was on kid number two and realized he wanted to leave the hustle lifestyleHe tried to get Ahrefs as a client for his agency by applying for a job and trying to turn it into a contract basis but in the end they won out and turned Sam into an employeeHe started without a title and was just asked to create educational videos and he turned that into as Director of Product Education and today he’s Sam is VP of Marketing at AhrefsWhy Entrepreneurs Need to Rethink Work Life BalanceSam's path to Ahrefs was anything but traditional. Instead of following the common route of balancing entrepreneurial ventures with full-time roles, he fully immersed himself in starting businesses. From e-commerce to marketplace experiments, he thrived on innovation and problem-solving. But the relentless grind eventually took its toll, especially after a significant setback with Google's Penguin update on his first e-commerce site.As he clocked in 16-17 hour days, the birth of his second child prompted a shift in priorities. The thought of missing out on his children's lives pushed Sam to rethink his approach. Was he destined to work endlessly or could he find a way to balance family and career? This question became pivotal as he sought more meaningful work-life integration.Sam's connection with Ahrefs began as a client pursuit. After months of discussions with Tim Soulo, they decided to collaborate. Initially, Sam held onto his agency, unsure of the future. However, the move to Ahrefs proved to be an excellent match. The company offered him full autonomy and creative control, backed by substantial budgets and resources.At Ahrefs, Sam feels a strong sense of ownership. The company's culture of trust and freedom aligns perfectly with his entrepreneurial spirit. This environment allows him to apply his skills effectively, achieving professional success without sacrificing personal fulfillment.Key takeaway: Entrepreneurs often face the challenge of overcommitting to their ventures at the expense of personal life. Reassess priorities and seek roles that align with your values and lifestyle. Find work that offers autonomy and creative freedom so you can prioritize professional success and personal fulfillment. SEO Experts Need to Stop Obsessing Over Algorithm UpdatesSam addresses the constant flux in the SEO world. His advice is refreshingly simple: focus on what works. Many SEO consultants, like the one asking the question, find themselves overwhelmed by the relentless updates and algorithm changes. Sam suggests that if your current strategies are effective, there’s no need to chase every new development.For those engaging in practices clearly against Google’s guidelines, staying updated is crucial. However, for most people working on technical SEO—handling internal linking, crawling, and similar tasks—the updates can be more noise than necessity. The key is to concentrate on proven methods and adjust only when a significant change directly impacts your work.Sam likens this to the hype around ChatGPT, where exaggerated claims cause unnecessary panic. He points out that this noise can lead to irrational fears, such as interns doubting their career choices. Instead of getting caught up in every new trend, it's better to stay grounded and focus on tangible results.Ultimately, Sam’s approach is to avoid the hysteria surrounding new updates and technologies. He emphasizes the importance ...
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    57 mins
  • 129: Re: Why Martech is Actually for Engineers

    129: Re: Why Martech is Actually for Engineers
    Jul 23 2024
    What’s up folks. We’ve got a fun episode today. If you’re a regular listener, you’ve heard me mention an article that’s been living rent free in my head for a while now. Casey Winters, the former CPO at Eventbrite and an Instructor at Reforge, wrote an article titled “The Problems With Martech, and Why Martech is Actually for Engineers”. I’ve asked a lot of recent guests what their thoughts were on some of the arguments raised in the article. So today we’re going to respond to his claims.Summary: Should you buy a 3rd party martech solution or build your own in-house tool, the answer is almost always buy. Let your in-house engineers focus on product and data while leveraging the cutting-edge solutions and support offered by specialized martech vendors. Unless you’re planning on building a martech company, leave the martech to the experts. Homegrown tools aren’t appealing to marketers, they’re hard to scale, most have a shitty UI and it’s not a recognisable martech tool you can add to your resume. Not only are homegrown martech tools not appealing to marketers, they are even less appealing to engineers. Engineers can’t stand the chaos of marketing and effective martech implementation requires collaboration between engineers and marketers, highlighting the need for cross-functional translators and disproving the claim that martech is actually only for engineers.Martech Has Continued to Explode as a CategorySo the article we’re debating was written in 2019, that’s 5 years ago. That’s a boatload of time in martech so we can’t fault the author too much and I respect his bold claims. He starts off by stating: “I hate martech, and think martech will decline as a category, and most martech businesses will not be very successful.” Now we could spend a whole episode disproving this prediction… but obviously we have 5 years of hindsight. But it is worth mentioning that he made this prediction on the year (2019) where the martech landscape exploded past 7,000 tools. Pretty bold to claim that it will decline as a category given the meteoric rise of tools up from only 350 in 2012. Scott Brinker recently released the state of martech in 2024 report which his team says they’ve seen the “largest number of new apps added to the martech landscape in the 13 years they’ve been curating it: net new growth of approximately 3,000 new tools.”We’ve crossed 13,000 tools, nearly doubling the landscape from 2019 when Casey made his “bold prediction” that martech will decline as a category. Number of tools isn’t the only way to evaluate whether martech has declined or not. I’m not a big fan of Gartner reports but if that’s a more trusted source for you, they reported that in 2023 client organizations spent over 1/4 of their marketing budgets on technology. In terms of VC investments, LUMA reported a steady rise in martech acquisitions in Q3 of 2023, averaging over 40 per quarter, alongside substantial capital inflows into new ventures. This financial backing underscores confidence in the industry's future​​.Okay… so Casey was wrong about martech declining as a category. But he did have some interesting arguments about why. His main thesis is that: Martech faces decline due to in-house engineers who are increasingly handling tailored solutions in-house, and the success of vendors hinges primarily on serving those engineers, not marketers.I’ve asked 8 recent guests on the podcast to read Casey’s article and share their thoughts.What’s your take on this? Is martech actually for engineers?Homegrown Marketing Technology Isn’t Attractive for Marketers or EngineersMartech Just Isn’t that Appealing for Most EngineersVish Gupta, Marketing Operations Manager at Databricks shared her perspective on whether martech is truly designed for engineers, challenging pretty much every single one of Casey’s viewpoints. She started by expressing her disagreement with the idea that martech will decline due to competition from in-house engineers and platform limitations. "I don't think martech is the sexiest thing for an engineer to do," she noted. Vish argued that talented engineers building martech are more likely to work for CRM companies to enhance their products rather than find in-house martech development appealing.Vish explained that building a CRM in-house is often not the best approach. She emphasized that knowing popular systems like Customerio, Marketo, and HubSpot adds more value. She questioned the practicality of finding the right talent for in-house solutions, given the complexities and specialized skills required.Regarding the idea that successful martech companies cater primarily to engineers, Vish disagreed. "Martech teams are actually part engineer, part product marketer, part IT person, part biz ops," she said. She believes the value of an operations professional lies not in owning and maintaining tech but in resolving business problems by aligning the ...
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    52 mins
  • 128: Vish Gupta: Why simplification should come before automation if you want to avoid a Frankenstack

    128: Vish Gupta: Why simplification should come before automation if you want to avoid a Frankenstack
    Jul 16 2024
    What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Vish Gupta, Marketing Operations Manager at Databricks. Summary: This episode with Vish is jam packed with advice for marketers making their way through the martech galaxy. We touch on the pitfalls of Frankenstein stacks and the perks of self-service martech. Vish explains why martech isn't just for engineers and highlights the efficiency of customized Asana intake forms. We also tackle the dangers of over-specialization for senior leaders. Additionally, we explore the intersection of martech and large language models (LLMs), providing insights on how to stay ahead in the evolving landscape.About VishVish started started her career as a Business Analyst in sales ops at Riverbed, a network management companyShe later joined Redis Labs – a real time data platform – as a Marketing Coordinator and got her first taste of analytics and reporting covering social, paid and eventsShe had a short contract at Brocade where she was Marketing Ops specialist and worked closely with their data science team to develop marketing reporting using BIShe then joined VMware, the popular virtualization software giant just before they were acquired by Broadcom. She was both a marketing analyst and later shifted to Growth Analyst where she focused more on Go to market strategyToday Vish is Marketing Operations Manager at Databricks, a leader in data and AI tech valued at more than 40BInfluences from a Tech-Infused ChildhoodVish’s upbringing in a tech-savvy household shaped her career path significantly. Her parents, immigrants from India, transitioned into tech for better opportunities, despite initial dreams of cricket and architecture. This drive for a better lifestyle through technology was a core narrative in her family.Interestingly, Vish initially rebelled against this tech-centric world. She pursued psychology, striving to carve out her unique path. However, practicality led her back to tech, aligning her career with her desired lifestyle. This shift wasn't romantic but highlighted her adaptability and strategic thinking.Her parents' relentless upskilling and enthusiasm for technology left a lasting impression. Their constant engagement with new tools and innovations inspired Vish to embrace learning and staying current with tech trends. This mindset proved invaluable in her role at Databricks, where technological adeptness is key.Growing up in Silicon Valley provided Vish with a unique network and role models in tech. This environment, combined with her parents' stories and actions, underscored the importance of tech as a vehicle for advancement and success.Key takeaway: Vish's tech-centric upbringing, driven by her immigrant parents' pursuit of better opportunities, significantly shaped her career. Despite initially rebelling by studying psychology, practicality led her back to tech, showcasing her adaptability. Her parents' continuous upskilling inspired her commitment to learning, crucial in her role at Databricks.Why Your Frankenstein Martech Stack is Sabotaging Your SuccessA Frankenstein martech stack is like a tech monster stitched together from mismatched parts, always on the brink of chaos. Avoiding the creation of a Frankenstein stack is challenging for any marketing operations team who is trying to stay on top of new tools. Vish’s mantra is that tools are not problem-solvers on their own; people and processes are the real drivers of solutions.She’s a big proponent of understanding the role each tool plays within the organization. It's crucial to ask, "What is this tool doing?" If a tool isn't effectively serving a business purpose or hasn't been adopted well, it might be time to retire it. Simplification is key before automation. An overly complex or constantly changing process isn't a good candidate for automation.Vish points out a common misconception: the belief that automating everything is the ultimate solution. In reality, automating a clunky or inefficient process can exacerbate issues rather than resolve them. The focus should be on simplifying processes first. Only after streamlining should organizations consider tools that enhance efficiency.In practice, this means critically assessing each tool's contribution to the business. If a tool no longer serves its purpose or complicates processes, it's time to reconsider its place in the stack. Automation should follow simplification, ensuring that processes are as straightforward as possible before adding layers of technology.Key takeaway: Simplification should precede automation. Marketers must critically evaluate their tools and processes, focusing on streamlining before leveraging automation. This approach prevents the creation of a cumbersome, Frankenstein-like martech stack—a tech monster stitched together from mismatched parts, always on the brink of chaos.Empowering Campaign Ops with Self-Serve ModelsSetting up self-service models for campaigns is like to an ...
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    51 mins