In our conversation today we talk about some of the deepest challenges facing the church today. Our guest is Mike Cosper, author of the new book 'The Church in Dark Times,' and he's bringing this incredible framework from the philosopher Hannah Arendt to help us understand the dynamics at play. What Cosper lays out is how the church, much like broader society, has become susceptible to the lure of ideology - these seductive stories that promise meaning and purpose, but ultimately lead us astray. He traces this back to the unbundling of identity that's happened in modernity, where we've lost those deep roots and sense of transcendence that used to anchor us. And the way Cosper unpacks Arendt's insights on the 'banality of evil' is extremely helpful. The idea that the greatest horrors can emerge not from some monstrous, radical evil, but from this hollow, empty shell of a person - that's a profoundly unsettling concept with huge implications. But Cosper doesn't just diagnose the problem. He also points us towards practices of solitude, thinking, and storytelling that can help us resist these ideological forces and recover a more rooted, transcendent vision of what it means to be the church. It's a conversation that I think will really challenge and inspire anyone who cares about the future of Christianity in our time.

Mike Cosper has been creating music, radio shows, and podcasts for more than 20 years. He produced and hosted The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast and is director of podcasts at Christianity Today. He now cohosts a weekly podcast called The Bulletin. Cosper also leads cohorts for church leaders and is the author of four books, including Recapturing the Wonder. He and his family live in Louisville, Kentucky.

Mike's Book:
The Church in Dark Times

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In this conversation we get to the heart of the divisions and fractures we're seeing in our society and in the church. Heather Gorman and Mark Nelson, the authors of the book "Lunchroom Theology," paint a vivid picture of the polarization all around us - the way we sort ourselves into different tables and groups, often suspicious or distrustful of those who aren't like us. But what's so compelling is how Heather and Mark point us back to the radical, subversive vision of Jesus - the way he broke down barriers, invited the unexpected to his table, and called his followers to a radical unity. They unpack how the early church struggled with this, but also found creative, improvisational ways to live it out. Ultimately, this is a conversation about recovering the imagination to see the world differently, to tell better stories, and to participate in the restoration that Jesus inaugurated. It's a call to intellectual humility, to curiosity about those who are different from us, and to a faith that is rooted in the mystery and wonder of God, not just a set of propositions. Heather and Mark offer a compelling alternative to the fear-driven, tribal mentality that so often dominates our public discourse. It's a vision of community, of neighbor-love, of pushing tables together - even when it's messy and uncomfortable. This is the kind of conversation we need more of. Join us at the table.

Mark Nelson and Heather Gorman co-authored Lunchroom Theology: Pushing Tables Together in a Fractured World.

Mark is the executive director of Three Rivers Collaborative and a coauthor of Reframation: Seeing God, People, and Mission Through Reenchanted Frames with Alan Hirsch. Mark is the founding pastor of Crossings, a faith community in Knoxville, Tennessee, where he served for fifteen years.

Heather (PhD, Baylor University) is Professor of New Testament at Johnson University and author of Interweaving Innocence: A Rhetorical Analysis of Luke’s Passion Narrative as well as numerous journal articles and essays on the Gospels, Acts, ancient rhetoric, and reception history.

Heather & Mark's Book:
Lunchroom Theology

Heather's Recommendation:
The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory

Mark's Recommendation:
A Burning in my Bones

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Today we have a fascinating conversation with Christian ethicist David Gushee about the moral teachings of Jesus. Gushee has spent decades wrestling with how to faithfully apply Jesus' radical vision for the kingdom of God in our modern context. What struck me most in our discussion was Gushee's insistence that Jesus' ethics are not merely aspirational, but profoundly subversive to the status quo. Jesus challenges our assumptions about power, wealth, tradition, and social status - calling us to a radical reorientation of our values and priorities. Gushee highlights key themes like Jesus' concern for the marginalized, his critique of religious and cultural traditions that exclude, and his vision of freedom that is not beholden to the expectations of others. It's a challenging message, but one that Gushee believes the church desperately needs to recover if we are to faithfully follow in the way of Jesus. This is a conversation that will make you think deeply about what it means to live as a disciple of Christ in our modern world. Gushee doesn't offer easy answers, but he compellingly lays out Jesus' moral vision and invites us to wrestle with its radical implications. I found it both inspiring and convicting - I hope you will as well.

Rev. Prof. Dr. David P. Gushee (PhD, Union Theological Seminary, New York) is Distinguished University Professor of Christian Ethics at Mercer University, and Chair of Christian Social Ethics at Vrije Universiteit (“Free University”) Amsterdam, and Senior Research Fellow, International Baptist Theological Study Centre.

Gushee is the elected Past-President of both the American Academy of Religion and the Society of Christian Ethics, signaling his role as one of America's leading Christian ethicists. He is the author, co-author, editor, or co-editor of more than 29 books and over 175 academic book chapters, journal articles, and reviews. His most recognized works include Kingdom Ethics, and Changing Our Mind. His other most notable works are Introducing Christian Ethics, Still Christian, After Evangelicalism, Righteous Gentiles of the Holocaust, Defending Democracy from Its Christian Enemies and recently The Moral Teachings of Jesus. Altogether his books have sold over 100,000 copies and been translated into a dozen languages.

David and his wife Jeanie live in Atlanta. He is a classic novel reader, world traveler, and tennis player, and awaits a call from his beloved Atlanta Braves to resume the baseball career he abandoned in college.

David's Book:
The Moral Teachings of Jesus

David's Recommendation:
Illiberal America

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