This conversation with Karl Vaters is a fascinating look at the history and impact of the Church Growth Movement in America and around the world. Karl shares how the movement started with good intentions to reach more people for Christ, but over time it became an unhealthy obsession with numerical growth and bigger churches. The danger is that we've often confused numerical size with spiritual health. Karl challenges us to shift our focus away from just growing the numbers, and instead prioritize discipleship and integrity in our churches. He believes discipleship can fix most problems a church faces, because it's about developing mature followers of Jesus, not just filling seats. Additionally, Karl warns against the celebrity culture that has crept into the church, where we elevate certain pastors and put them on a pedestal. Instead, he advocates for a return to more collaborative, team-based leadership that equips the whole body for ministry. Overall, this was a thought-provoking conversation that calls the church back to its biblical foundations of making disciples, walking in integrity, and letting Jesus build his church. Join us as we de-size the church.

Karl Vaters is the author of five books, including the brand-new De-Sizing the Church. Karl produces resources for Helping Small Churches Thrive at KarlVaters.com. His heart is to help pastors of small churches (up to 90 percent of us) find the resources to lead well, and to capitalize on the unique advantages that come with pastoring a small church – something virtually every pastor will spend at least some of their ministry years doing. He also believes that big and small churches can and should work together more often – to the benefit and blessing of everyone.

Karl also hosts a bi-weekly podcast, The Church Lobby: Conversations on Faith & Ministry. Episodes feature in-depth interviews about the topics that concern pastors, especially those who minister in a small church context.

Karl has served in small-church ministry for over 40 years, so he speaks and writes from decades of hands-on pastoral experience.

Karl's Book:
De-Sizing the Church

Karl's Recommendation:
The Great Dechurching

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