This is a special re-release of an episode featuring guest host Jackson Kroopf speaking with the incomparable Kimberly Ann Johnson and Stephen Jenkinson. We’re bringing this conversation back to let you know about something special happening this weekend from Stephen Jenkinson and the Orphan Wisdom School: Sanity and Soul: Die Wise 10 Years.

Taking place on March 15th and 16th at 10am Pacific, this 6-part online event is a deep dive into the wisdom of death, grief, and the soul, 10 years after the publication of Stephen's transformative book Die Wise. You’ll get to experience the depth of Stephen’s work in a pretty unique way: through 4 recorded grief counsel sessions with dying people, hearing Stephen practice, in 2025, the kind of work described in Die Wise. Plus, he’ll be joined by two brilliant colleagues—a neuroscientist studying human consciousness and a filmmaker exploring the afterlife—to discuss the lasting impact of Die Wise on grief counseling, death doulas, and the way these ideas continue to shape our world.

If you want to learn more and register, visit orphanwisdom.com/events. But now, enjoy this conversation from March 2023, following Reckoning at Mt. Madonna. Please do consider gifting yourself or a loved one this upcoming offering, Sanity & Soul that promises to provide some ceremony in these troubled times in ways only Stephen and the Orphan Wisdom School can.

Link: https://orphanwisdom.com/event/die-wise-sanity-and-soul-ten-years-on/

What You’ll Here in this Episode:

Reflections on witness from retired birth and death workers

The value of disillusionment

The power of loneliness

The proliferation of self pathologizing

The complex politics of feelings

The religion of western psychology

Adolescents grabbing for pop psychology labels

The respect in not offering solutions

The eagerness to escape from pain while grieving

Is love dead?

Blessing not as approval but the emergence of something new

Marriage as both celebration and loss

Matrimony between cultures

An only child and single parent inviting in a new husband

Building an escape route as you enter a union

The no-go zone of contemporary western marriage

15 minute weddings, 15 minute funerals, 15 minute births

The cultural casualties of uniformity

Being healthy enough to tend to home and neighbor

Links

ig @reckoning live

Sanity & Soul Sign-Up https://orphanwisdom.com/event/die-wise-sanity-and-soul-ten-years-on/

In this episode, return guest Joelle Hann and Kimberly discuss the complexities of publishing, including traditional, self, and hybrid publishing. Joelle walks us through the importance of a book proposal, which serves as a roadmap for authors and a calling card for agents and publishers. Kimberly weighs in on her own experience in navigating the book publishing world and the incredible value she has found in working with Joelle. Joelle highlights the need for authors to understand their audience and market, and the potential pitfalls of self-publishing without an existing audience. Joelle's Book Proposal Academy is enrolling now and starts March 14th. This is the only cohort for 2025. Apply now! To be eligible to save up to $500 and get other early-bird bonuses, mention Sex, Birth, Trauma podcast in your application.

Bio

Joelle Hann is an award-winning writer with a history of developing high-level book projects for major American publishers. Subject areas have included wellness and transformation, women’s health, leadership and spirituality, as well as conscious business, personal finance and memoir. She has worked with top CEOs and humanitarian activists,visionary coaches and thought-leaders, spiritual teachers, scholars, moms, midwives, entrepreneurs, and many others. She founded Brooklyn Book Doctor to help people write transformational books to help change the world.

Links

IG @brooklynbookdoctor

Learn More & Apply to Book Proposal Academy 2025: https://brooklynbookdoctor.com/bpa

Learn More about Sanity & Soul: Die Wise Ten Years On with Stephen Jenkinson here: https://orphanwisdom.com/event/die-wise-sanity-and-soul-ten-years-on/

In this episode, Kimberly dives deep into guest author Catherine Simone Gray's book Proud Flesh: A Memoir of Motherhood, Intimate Violence, and Reclaiming Pleasure. With tenderness, Kimberly and Catherine share their mutual appreciation for each other’s writing and the deep impact Kimberly’s work has had on the journey that led to Catherine’s book. Catherine guides us through her journey of healing from a vaginal tear postpartum, which led to the discovery of proud flesh, a term for hypergranulation tissue. She describes the emotional and physical challenges she faced across two births (one hospital/C-Section, one home/natural), including silver nitrate treatments and the support of her husband; recounting the story of how the couple’s relationships to one another’s bodies changed when she invited him to draw her vulva daily. Catherine and Kimberly both emphasize the importance of language and writing in redefining sexuality and eroticism, and how this process can support women in reconnecting with their body. If you enjoyed this conversation be sure to sign up for their online gathering Writing as a Pathway to Pleasure on Sunday, February 23rd at https://kimberlyannjohnson.com/writing-pathway-to-pleasure/

Bio

Catherine Simone Gray is a writer and teacher. Her writings on motherhood and healing first appeared on her blog Unsilenced Woman, where her piece about teaching her son consent reached 2.5 million around the world. Featured by Roxane Gay in The Audacity’s Emerging Writer Series, her work has also appeared in The Bitter Southerner and the Michigan Quarterly Review: Mixtape. Her blog writings have been shared by respected organizations for new mothers, such as La Leche League USA, International Cesarean Awareness Network, and ImprovingBirth. Gray is the recipient of a literary arts fellowship with the Mississippi Arts Commission and has delivered three addresses at the Mississippi Women's March and Womanist rallies.

With over a decade of experience as a writing teacher to people aged eight to eighty, she holds a master of arts in curriculum and instruction. She leads writing circles for women, mothers, and caregivers, exploring how writing can be an ally in our living and loving. Her debut memoir Proud Flesh: A Memoir of Motherhood, Intimate Violence, and Reclaiming Pleasure was published in 2025 by North Atlantic Books. She lives in Jackson, Mississippi, with her husband and their two sons.

What You’ll Hear

• Kimberly’s deep appreciation for the writing craft found in Catherine’s book and is moved by the way their work has intersected

• Catherine has been a Jaguar since 2017 and shares the way many baths listening, reading and sitting with Kimberly’s work influenced Proud Flesh

• Catherine recalls key moments with her doctor in making a healing plan for a natural birth injury

• Catherine describes how the scientific term Proud Flesh took on poetic meaning in her life

• Catherine discusses the difference in healing from the numbing disconnect of C-Section to the embodied pain of a natural birth.

• Catherine describes a profound confrontation with how her and her husband relate to each other’s bodies, which led to a durational art project in which he drew her vulva over time.

• Catherine and Kimberly reflect on erotic writing that doesn’t reify centering the male gaze

• Kimberly and Catherine talk about their own evolving relationships to their bodies and the craft of writing

Links

IG - @unsilencedwoman

Website - www.unsilencedwoman.com

Book - https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/771427/proud-flesh-by-catherine-simone-gray/

Online Gathering - https://kimberlyannjohnson

In this episode, Kimberly and Pānquetzani discuss her new book Thriving Postpartum: Embracing the Indigenous Wisdom of La Cuarentena and the thirteen year process of navigating that creative act. Pānquetzani reflects on the ways her relationships with partners and her four children have impacted the journey of making a business and writing a book. Pānquetzani’s writing is inextricably linked directly to the work she has done in and for her community around postpartum care, as well as the lessons she learned around mental health and partner agreements along the way. A deep meditation on personal healing and learning how to make and hold boundaries. The episode lovingly asks: how do you listen to your intuition, your womb, and your baby?

Bio

Pānquetzani comes from a matriarchal family of folk healers from the valley of Mexico (Tenochtitlan, Texcoco, and Tlaxcala), La Comarca Lagunera (Durango and Coahuila), and Zacatecas. As a traditional herbalist, healer, and birthkeeper, Pānquetzani has touched over 3,000 wombs and bellies. Through her platform, Indigemama: Ancestral Healing, she has taught over 100 live, in-person intensives and trainings on womb wellness. She lives in California.

What you’ll hear:

• The 13 year journey of writing a book

• Differences in how men and women are treated in public as new parents

• Liberation of separation and divorce

• The challenge of holding boundaries with mothers-in-law

• Creating a culture of community care in a colonial context

• How to navigate who you want in your cuarentena?

• How to work with narcissism and boundaries?

• Listen to your womb, listen to your intuition, ask your baby: what do you need?

• Pain and martyrdom’s role in parenting

• Respect is connected to access in a relationship

• A birth story that led to parent/child healing

• How to be in communication with your womb

Resources

Website: https://indigemama.com/

IG: @indigemama

Book: Thriving Postpartum at Sounds True

Kimberly and Mirabai Starr engage in a rich and intimate exploration of mysticism, personal loss, spirituality, and the intersection of sexuality and the sacred. They consider how they have each found spirituality in their everyday lives while being mindful of their journeys, cultures, ancestry, and the complexities involved. They discuss Mirabai's new book, "Ordinary Mysticism," which delves into the nature of mysticism and its accessibility to everyone every day. Mirabai emphasizes that mysticism doesn't require institutionalized religion and can be found in ordinary moments. They discuss the profound impact of loss and grief in Mirabai’s life. She describes how these experiences deepened her connection to the sacred and the beauty intertwined with suffering.

Bio

Mirabai Starr is an award winning author of creative nonfiction and contemporary translations of sacred literature. She taught philosophy and world religions at the University of New Mexico, Taos for 20 years, and now teaches and speaks internationally on contemplative practice and inter-spiritual dialog. A certified bereavement counselor, Mirabai helps mourners harness the transformational power of loss. She has written over 15 books, and the latest is “Ordinary Mysticism.” But you'll hear her talk about “Caravan of No Despair,” “Wild Mercy,” and some of her translations from Spanish to English, “In The Mystics,” “The Great Mystics.” She lives with her extended family in the mountains of northern New Mexico.

What you’ll hear:

• Mirabai's views on spiritual, literary and poetic writing.

• The origin story of her new book "Ordinary Mysticism" - including it’s connection to Anne Lamott

• The ease in finding the mystical if you are open to it.

• The challenges of having that openness in the everyday

• The intersections of grief and the sacred

• Cultivating mystical awareness in daily life

• Searching for spiritual grounding

• Uprootedness of being spiritual but not religious

• How to understand your relationship to different spiritual technologies

• How to tap into spiritual bounty without colonizing and appropriating

• Intention and attention are crucial for recognizing the sacred in the mundane.

• The integration of sexuality and spirituality

• The common split many women feel between the sexual and the sacred aspects of their lives. How healing from/through sexual abuse can lead to sacredness in intimacy

• What’s a responsible and mindful approach to drawing from various spiritual traditions?

• How does storytelling and reflecting on shared struggles lead to insights within the spiritual journey?

• And how ending an abusive sexual and spiritual relationship can lead to healing through new forms of intimacy.

• Healthy intimacy can be holy

Resources
https://mirabaistarr.com/

In this episode, podcast producer Jackson Kroopf interviews Kimberly Ann Johnson and Stephen Jenkinson about their upcoming live audio series Never Land / Sever Land - Dirt, Place, Ancestry, and The Making of Culture From The New World. They discuss the impact of their recent trip to Ireland on their ongoing collaboration around culture making in the wake of a global pandemic. They reveal details about Stephen's work-in-progress manuscript and how it relates to orphan wisdom. They consider the implications of the “New World” in contemporary circumstances, the sticky territory of ancestry, and how dirt fits into all of this. A glimpse into a very special offering to come, this conversation gives you a preview into what happens when these two come together to consider the topics and work they’ve devoted so much of their respective writings and teachings to: how to consider (your) place when history is never far past.

Bio

Stephen Jenkinson, MTS, MSW is a worker, author, storyteller, musician and culture activist. In 2010, he founded Orphan Wisdom, a house for learning skills of deep living and making human culture that are mandatory in endangered, endangering times. It is a redemptive project that comes from where he comes from. It is rooted in knowing history, being claimed by ancestry, working for a time he won’t live to see. When not on the road, he makes books, succumbs to interviews, tends to labours on a small farm, mends broken handles and fences, and bends towards lifeways dictated by the seasons of the boreal borderlands.

What you’ll here wonderings about:

• What it means for North Americans to visit their ancestral homeland
• The consequences of being cultural orphans
• Native culture and its relationship to whiteness
• What ancestry means to your travel plans
• The difference between making culture from and making culture for...
• Peter Behrens' book "The Law of Dream"
• Stephen's musings on Tobe Hooper and Stephen Spielberg's film Poltergeist
• Back to the land / farming fantasies
• Dirt and its layered wisdom
• Shifts in Stephen's teachings from warnings to descriptors
• The Unauthorized history of North America
• What it means to always feel like you're running
• Why its different to listen to this series live...
• What wellness has to do with all this...

You can learn more and sign up for their upcoming class "Never Land / Sever Land: Dirt, Place, Ancestry, and The Makings of Culture From the New World" from October 20th-November 17th at:

https://kimberlyannjohnson.com/never-land/

photo by Mattias Olsson

In this episode, Kimberly and April discuss her most recent book of poetry titled Matter / Mother which shares about April’s experience of traveling through the underworld of grief, hardship, and heartbreak while mothering her young child. Together, they share their desires for a culture that makes space for the depth of mothering experiences and stories through all of the different seasons of life. They also discuss how to bear the pain and responsibility of both creating a world we want our children to live in while simultaneously inhabiting the one that currently exists. Overall, their vulnerability and honest reflections from their differing seasons of mothering offers language to those deep experiences and possibility for all mothers.

Bio

April Tierney is a poet, activist, craftswoman, mother, and lover of stories. Her work follows threads of ecopoetics, myth, culture, and lineage. She has been nominated for The Pushcart Prize and featured in Orion Magazine, Deep Times: A Journal of the Work that Reconnects, Clarion Poetry Magazine, and Real Ground Journal, among others.

What She Shares:

–”Matter / Mother” poetry and mothering

–Mothering in the upper world while traversing the underworld

–Creative process while mothering

–Motherhood hardship and joys of different seasons

–Creating the world we want our children to inhabit

What You’ll Hear:

–Latest book “Matter Mother” of poetry

–Reading of “Birth Story” poem

–Birth as animalistic and mythic

–Decision behind black cover on book

–Longing for more mothering stories from underworld journey

–Writing a book during early mothering

–Listening to experiences not from our own

–Finding language for mothering experiences

–Finding the right voices on mothering experiences

–Birth culturally accepted as traumatic

–Mothering in the underworld while raising children in the upperworld

–Mothering as existential

–Heartbreak of mothering in these times

–Unable to talk about lived, ongoing way while holding children

–Fantasy of modern motherhood

–Modern living as kind of trauma we learn to cope with

–Four forest fires in three days

–Evacuating from home from forest fires

–Pausing from writing and trusting the quiet places

–Writing as torture until its tended to

–Bringing forth for the world what is asking to come through

–Books as living, breathing things

–Creative portion of mothering in tension with energy and needs

–Kimberly’s surprise of mothering young adulthood

–Grieving and loving during mothering in all phases

–Importance of sharing from different stages of mothering

–Physical versus psychological demands of mothering

–Noticing the glory spots of mothering

–Sending children out into the world

–Creating the world we want our children to live in

Resources

Website: https://www.apriltierney.com/

IG: @apriltierney11