Mark introduces the episode with some context about where today's topic came from

Jim had a speech to give last week and on the drive he teed up our last episode about writng a letter to your 21 year old self

In that episode we mentioned the 80/20 rule, aka, The Pareto Principle

He talked about how he wove it into his speech and how it resonate with the audience

Then the guys broke down the history of the rule and how universal it's application became over time

Both guys gave examples of it in their lives with an emphasis on work/business/productivity

Then Jim went over the multitude of other applications in life where the principle also applied

Virtually anywhere you could apply metrics/data and/or percentages...the 80/20 rule applies

Mark starts off introducing the topic which revolves around the presidential election of 2024. What do we do now?

Jim and Mark are more interested in addresing what actually happened, why it may have happened and what we might expect to happen next

What do we do now?

We went back and forth about the blue team and red team. No judgement

It's not what happens to you, it's how you respond...

We talked about elitism and messaging. How the blue team continued the division and condescension

We discussed how diverse the turnout was from the red team (ironically)

We left on an optimistic note. The system worked and now we have much work to do

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Due to a technical glitch (my fault most likely), I lost my show notes to the ether. The summary above should capture the essence of my notes

This is the best that my memeory will allow:)

Mark introduces the topic of communication and within that general topic, the subtopic of persuasion. He then emphasizes the value of having a framework. He puts our framework in perspective

Jim chimes in about the idea of having a framework and emphasizes the IMC framework

Jim shares his 5 W’s framework and how helpful it has been for him in a variety of projects. How it adds perspective for both parties

He shares the value of effective people being clear

Jim asks Mark about his framework

Mark shares his childhood influences around communication and then his framework

What do you say?

How do you say it?

To whom do you say it?

When do you say it?

Both guys agree they made their frameworks theirs…no matter where it came from

Mark brings up the image Jim shared and begins to share the examples of lazy responses versus helpful responses

The guys dig into examples of how powerful specific words are and how changing a word can change the tone of the whole conversation

Problem versus “opportunity” or “challenge”

All the specific examples from Jim’s image become the conversations

Each example uncovers how simple shifts, different words change the whole tone and emotion of the conversation

Both guys share their experience with each example and how they have both made the mistake of using the lazy language and relearned the helpful response

They both emphasize the importance of not apologizing. Never apologize unless you’ve done real wrong

Mark shares - don’t say, “to be honest with you”. “Frank” or Jim’s option “transparent”

They discuss transparency as a double edged sword

“I’m too busy” means I’m too busy for you

They both have a laugh about “too busy”

“That’s not my” job versus, “let me get you to the right person”

Mark shares his mentor’s story about personal accountability

“I’ll try” versus “I’ll take care of it”. Jim has a different angle on this one

Mark frames it as personal accountability. I won’t dismiss you, we’ll get it taken care of

Apologizing comes up again and both guys reiterate the problem with saying you’re sorry

Jim uses “I own that one”. “That one’s on me”. Take ownership

Mark - “sorry never works for me unless you really fucked something up”

Mark shares some media examples of how apologies become bigger problems

Jim says behaviors are more important than words - Mark agrees

The next example is disagreement - “You’re wrong” versus “I have a different perspective on this than you and I’d like to share it with you”

Jim cites people who actually enjoy conflict to garner attention

“This might sound stupid but…” versus “Let’s try this.” Naysayers are everywhere

Jim agrees as an inventor he always shares new ideas…the value of reframing ideas until consensus is established

Mark brings up Jordan Peterson talking about Elon Musk and comparison (Elon’s roommate story)

Jim - All comparison leads to misery

Jim shares “I have an hypothesis” versus a theory. An hypothesis is designed to be challenged…designed to be criticized

He shares the difference between an hypothesis and a theory

A theory has been proven. An hypothesis has not yet been proven

“No worries”… “I’m happy to help”

Both guys discuss the nuance of this one

Mark feels like “no worries” is kind of a throw away

They conclude that this whole exercise is an exercise in self awareness

The final example is recommending something to someone

‘I think maybe we should” versus “I recommend we do this…”

Jim says “I think” makes him feel like “Why should I listen to you”

Mark finishes with his 4 pronged framework

He confirms that listening and asking questions before speaking is almost always the best strategy

Jim finishes with the value of clarifying assumptions, discussing desired outcomes, “who, not how” and what are the necessary resources?

Mark shares his support of this as authentic…for both parties

A we suggested in the episode, we want to encourage anyone who is interested and able to contribute to my daughter Caroline’s Go Fund Me campaign in support of documenting the devastation that hit Asheville, NC (where she lives) recently with her creative partners in the form of a documentary. Details can be found here - https://gofund.me/8fcfe6fa

Thanks for your support!!

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Mark introduces the topic of self interest and suggests that it might be valuable to flush out each party’s self interest before engaging another, regardless of the nature of the engagement. Then he tosses it back to Jim before engaging people in conversation.

Jim talks about introducing the idea of our podcast to others and describes how he explains it to people

He then reflects on how everything we do starts with self. He identifies our target market (middle aged men). He shares his thoughts on self interest in particular and how he tries to establish self interest

He feels this helps with transparency and honesty

Mark reflects on his sales journey and how he was coached to hide his self interest. He has evolved into a more transparent approach

Jim chimes in about his sales career and the evolution of how he handles self interest

Both guys reflect on their evolution from selling in the 80’s versus where they on now. They were taught to hold their cards close to the fence

Mark shares his reflection on the movie Glengarry GlenRoss. And Alec Baldwins “ABC” approach

Jim says he doesn’t miss that approach at all

Mark says you can make money with the hard sell, but not long term with the same clients. It’s a churn and burn

Mark reframes how he approaches sales and coaching today. Goodwill and referrals

It used to be “I win if you lose”. Now it’s win win

Jim suggests that our young folks (30’s) today have better bullshit detectors and they won’t tolerate a lack of transparency

Jim’s approach now is understanding how every party can win

Mark tells a story about his dad’s hand shake deal over a loan - there’s always been room for transparency

Jim tells his patent attorney story and how the final bill was much higher than expected - how he resolved the issue with both parties happy and the relationship in tact

Jim shares that both parties taking ownership for the solution was critical to the success of the engagement

Jim says he is much better at establishing assumptions, self interest and expectations before moving deeper into a negotiation or discussion

Marks says we often assume that others see the world the same way we do. He relates a story about his son and “getting things in writing”. Things change post agreement. Nothing is static. Things should be readdressed continuously over time

Jim distinguishes between knowledge and wisdom. Experience breeds wisdom. The world needs wisdom, not knowledge

Mark says most of his wisdom comes from mistakes and failure. He says execution is what he needs most

Jim wants to leave discussions with understanding, not power. He doesn’t know everything. No one does

Mark brings up the topic of what words mean. His example is abortion. He shares the different nuances with this particular topic

Jim jumps in and suggests that “I don’t want to talk about abortion”. Are you having the wrong conversation with the wrong person at the wrong time. “I don’t want to talk about that”. Back to self interest

One has to be self aware about what who wants to talk about

Mark jokes about the pregame conversation with Jim about the topic of health. Jim tells stories about different friends who ramble o. About their own ailments

Mark bring his daughter and he being able to help everyone…but not if they’re not ready. You can’t people who don’t want to be helped

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Jim asks Mark to share his daughter’s campaign to help Asheville, NC recover from the devastation from the hurricane by producing a documentary

The guys try to frame the situation and make a link available to help fund the project

Here is the link again - https://gofund.me/8fcfe6fa

Mark introduces two topics. Community and legacy

He shares that they skipped last week because of the two hurricanes and tells the listeners that everyone was safe in his family and how the communities came together

Why we can get along and be supportive in times of hardship, yet we are divided in times of peace

Mark says we’re not as divided as the media portray us. Mark says if we all got together, we wouldn’t need the government…and that scares the hell out of the government

Jim says he’s grateful everyone is OK. He compliments Mark on his ability to not show anxiety

Jim speaks about anxiety in general. Common anxiety. Anxiety brings people together

It’s human nature. He asks Mark to read the definition of anxiety

Mark shares a story about his son during the storm and how, without power, he came outside to help

Jim says it’s a perfect example of how anxiety can bring us together

Jim relates to the flywheel - health- mental health. He says the best way to handle anxiety is to have a conversation. Anxiety means you’re not present

Mark relates the community effort and how healing it was

Mark gives his opinion about why he handles anxiety the way he does

Jim says it’s not what happens to us it’s how we respond and then he transitions into legacy

Mark brings up the movie Poseidon Adventure and Gene Hackman - Great legacy story

Jim says it’ not just hurricanes..the political landscape approaching a presidential election

They acknowledge Asheville NC where Mark’s daughters and girlfriend daughter lives (everyone is ok)

Mark says the reason the current “regime” is nervous is because what they disasters are showing is that when we all get together…we don’t need the government…and that scares the shit out of the people in power

Jim agrees and brings up taxes - it’s an insurance policy. We pay you and you protect us…and they have not

Jim brings up his hometown near Oakland CA where the government has taken the money and not delivered the services

And we’re supposed to trust the government again?

Mark asks, why is this, why now? We have SO MUCH media. Regardless of political stance. So much noise. Anxiety comes from the noise

Jim shares a high school football story from this past weekend. Pregame pictures:)

Mark says there is only 1 MVP

He shares his frame of reference 1928 to 2024. 7 or 8 presidents. Their opinions have context

Jim says the kids were as interested in their pictures as they were in winning the game

Mark says. What’s important? It’s ass backwards

Jim says the parents don’t know what to do either and CA is passing laws about cell phones in class

Jim says the government can play a role, but another law that schools can’t suspend students anymore. Now way more kids are misbehaving. Also the $900 theft law is still in place

Mark asks how long will this most recent tragedy be remembered in the context of community

Mark transitions into legacy and asks when one should start thinking about legacy

Jim asks that we define legacy and both guys clarify their individual positions on legacy

Jim shares some thoughts about his own current anxiety about an upcoming speech he’s to give tomorrow and his most recent provisional patent recently submitted in the context of legacy and anxiety

Mark thinks having a legacy is a form of personal accountability

Mark shares his Little League All Star anxiety and his dad’s reply

Jim shares a Sylvester Stallone story

Jim says there is such a thing as healthy anxiety

Jim asks Mark what he would say to his 30 year old self

Mark says it’s difficult at 30 to think about being 60. Legacy is what the people say about you when you’re gone. Mark wishes Jim good luck with his speech

Mark introduces the topic based on Jim’s experience and the guys decide to expand on the flywheel and the 5 areas of life as “screens” that we look through

He starts with money

Jim shares a story about meeting some strangers and getting into a discussion about our podcast and specifically money. Jim has been getting more and more comfortable explaining our podcast

He shares how one of the people was triggered by the topic of money

These people were US citizens who grew up in Iran. He asked about wearing her veil and she told Jim she is not a fan of the covering but still wears it

This led to a discussion of worldview

Jim shares his recollection of the podcast that he listened to about money and his “screen” theory

Mark transitions to profession and how different life is for entrepreneurs and those that work for others

He talks about risk and the notion of playing with other people’s money

Jim refers back to his discussion with the strangers from Iran. A women’s perspective

Mark talks about serving men that are not encouraged to talk about emotion. He frames the podcast and the 5 areas in terms of self awareness

Jim expands on the self concepts

Jim tells about changing actual screens on his home and the analogy of looking at life through screens

He suggests that many people go through life unaware of their screens

Mark brings up masks and how different their screens are from his

Mark talks about his mom and his resultant health screen as far as eating and exercising were concerned. He shares his screen about the medical and pharmaceutical industries

Jim talks about his mom and dad and when they were born and their “cheap gene”

Mark shares his version of the cheap gene

Mark moves the discussion to relationships and brings his mom and dad back into the discussion

He suggests that boys and girls tend to look for mates like their mothers and fathers

The guys bring up how many people are jaded and the bitter or better phrase. How bitter people start as victims and how difficult this is to overcome

Mark talks about entrepreneurship and how it shapes your version of risk. He asks Jim what his life might be like if he never played football

Mark brings up grandparents and great grand parents

Jim tells a story about a company that he is close to was radio and everyone was let go. He shares how an event like that shapes peoples lens about trusting companies

Mark shares his experience with people who have been displaced and treated good bad and indifferent. He has arrived at a place where he is helping people be “prepared” for anything

Life isn’t fair. This realization is part of becoming an adult

Mark thinks that our podcast is helpful because it pushes self awareness which makes people more aware of what is true versus fair

He thinks being aware of your perspectives makes you a more effective communicator

Jim connects the discussion to our previous podcast episode of Amore Fatte

Mark brings up the topic - Love of fate, love of one’s fate - "Amore Fati"

Stoicism

Things happen for you, not to you

Personal accountability and self awareness

Mark asks Jim to share the back story Three conversations with three good friends

Jim did a deep dive into Amore Fate. The Japanese version “wabi sabi”

The connection to imperfection

People with victim mentalities are not pleasant to be around

Mark talks about personal accountability and self awareness…learning through failure

Jim shares a couple of pet phrases. Bitter or better and don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better

Everything is a choice

Mark talks about “the pause”. Don’t react. Wait. Regain objectivity

Jim came up with 10 words

1. Gratitude - Jim asks Mark about his daily practice

2. Presence - be in the moment. Mark talks about paying attention and young people struggling with attention. Jim cites California law taking phones from kids at school

3. Embrace

4. Response

5. Peace. Mark cites peace of mind

6. Meaning and the connection to suffering. Mark brings up Victor Frankel’s man’s Search For Meaning. Mark suggests that suffering m makes you stronger…it’s a choice

7. Forgiveness. Mark sheds light on forgiving yourself

8. Self Compassion. Jim says it takes work to forgive

Mark talks about forgiving his ex wife

9. Mundane Beauty - Mark brings up his dad and how he sees new things with a childlike wonder

Life isn’t a highlight film - Jim

Mark calls the mundane practice. Weight rooms and running stairs

10. Authenticity and inauthenticity (Our Vice President)

Mark talks about applying these concepts to life

Acceptance

Explore your reactions to things and maybe change your reactions

Look for the grace in things. Mark reframes his forgiveness of his ex wife and how he contextualizes her difficult childhood. Put yourself in the other persons shoes…gets you to grace

Jim goes back to embracing. Embracing adversity

Mark talks about consistency. The need to practice. It’s never done

Jim frames the discussion as being a persons worldview

Mark says emotional decisions are often bad decisions. Use the pause

Jim says these concepts are timeless and cross cultural constructs

Mark shares his daily practice and how all religions have very much the same concepts

Jim revisits “don’t be nice, be kind”.

Mark says nice is inauthentic

Mark says we’re all going through the same shit

Jim asks us to be men. There are too many boys out there

DEI gets some laughs

Jim shares “the search for meaning in the imperfection”

He closes with meaning in the incomplete

Mark frames incomplete in terms of shipping your work at 80 or 90 % complete

Jim agrees completely