To be ruled is to be spied upon and inspected, quantified, measured, and ranked, and then registered and regulated with all the inherent structural violence packed into those arrangements. To be free is to abolish all of it, to reject that system’s hold over our minds as well as to defeat its power in the world. What kind of society do we want to live in? What world will we build? Today we’re joined in conversation with Anita Say Chan, a feminist, decolonial scholar, and author of Predatory Data: Eugenics in Big Tech and our Fight for an Independent Future, as we think about techno-surveillance, algorithmic discrimination, the noisy echoes of the anti-immigration and eugenics movements of the 19th century all around us, as well as alternative data practices and projects developed by minorities actors in pursuit of justice.

What is your North Star? What are you fighting for, and what are you struggling to overcome, or leave behind? The goal is not a precise and detailed roadmap—that way lies dogma, orthodoxy, and worse—but rather a vision and a hope with which to gauge and partially frame our work in the here and now. The great Uruguay revolutionary, Edwardo Galeano, tells a story of being confronted by a person accusing him of being a utopian, and asking contemptuously, “What good is Utopia?” Galeano says, “It’s true that if I walk 2 steps toward Utopia, Utopia walks 2 steps away, and if I walk 10 steps toward her, she walks 10 steps away. So what good is Utopia?” His reply: “It’s good for walking.” We’re joined in conversation by M.E. O’Brien and Eman Abdelhadi, authors of Everything for Everyone: An Oral History of the New York Commune 2052-2072, a novel that is so imaginative, so challenging, and so surprising that it reorders our conception of what’s possible to write—and to think.