Welcome to Episode 144 (Part I of II), where Richard Dawkins interviews Steven Pinker on the past and future of humanity.

This is a live recording from our recent show – The Future of Humanity – held on 3 June 2025 at London’s Royal Institution Theatre.

The event was a conversation between psychologist Steven Pinker and biologist Richard Dawkins – both previous guests on The Panpsycast – exploring the evolution of human beings and the challenges we face in the future. Richard leads the discussion, questioning Steve about his extensive catalogue of books and his contributions to psychology, sociology, and evolutionary theory. They focus a lot on the past but, eventually, get on to the future. It’s a brilliant exchange, covering a wide range of topics and packed with some of Pinker’s most important insights.

The first part of this podcast special is their free-flowing conversation; the second is a Q&A with the audience, hosted by Jack. Thank you to everyone who came along and made the show possible. Without further ado, here’s the audio from our live show – we hope you enjoy the conversation.

Links

Steven Pinker, Website

Richard Dawkins, Website

We’re living through a mental health crisis. In Europe, use of antidepressant has more than doubled in the past twenty years, and one in five children are now living with a recognised mental health condition. These numbers are striking, and the suffering they reflect personal, and clouded in mystery. But have we always been like this? Or has something shifted – in our politics, our culture, or perhaps in our understanding of what it means to be a person? Is the rise in mental health disorders a product of modern life, or are we simply more willing to talk about them? And what happens when system, designed to help us, ends up making us feel more broken, more stuck, and more alone?

In this episode, we’ll discussing these questions with Rose Cartwright – best-known as the author of Pure, a raw and radical memoir about living with OCD, which went on to become a popular Channel 4 television drama. Today, Rose is a screenwriter on the Netflix show 3 Body Problem, and her latest book, The Maps We Carry, takes a deep dive into the territory of trauma, healing, and the limits of the medical model.

As shall see, Rose’s work explores how our distress is shaped by the stories we tell – and the stories we’re told – about our minds. She asks whether we need new narratives, new frameworks, and even new states of consciousness to understand and transform our inner lives. Drawing on her own experiences – talking therapies, medications, psychedelic journeys, and the spaces in between – Rose invites us to imagine a more expansive approach to mental health. What does that expansive model look like? And is it really necessary? Well – lie back on the couch, take a deep breath… and let’s find out.

Links

Rose Cartwright, Website.

Rose Cartwright, The Maps We Carry.

Rose Cartwright, Pure.

Pure – TV Show.

3 Body Problem – TV Show.

We’re living through a mental health crisis. In Europe, use of antidepressant has more than doubled in the past twenty years, and one in five children are now living with a recognised mental health condition. These numbers are striking, and the suffering they reflect personal, and clouded in mystery. But have we always been like this? Or has something shifted – in our politics, our culture, or perhaps in our understanding of what it means to be a person? Is the rise in mental health disorders a product of modern life, or are we simply more willing to talk about them? And what happens when system, designed to help us, ends up making us feel more broken, more stuck, and more alone?

In this episode, we’ll discussing these questions with Rose Cartwright – best-known as the author of Pure, a raw and radical memoir about living with OCD, which went on to become a popular Channel 4 television drama. Today, Rose is a screenwriter on the Netflix show 3 Body Problem, and her latest book, The Maps We Carry, takes a deep dive into the territory of trauma, healing, and the limits of the medical model.

As shall see, Rose’s work explores how our distress is shaped by the stories we tell – and the stories we’re told – about our minds. She asks whether we need new narratives, new frameworks, and even new states of consciousness to understand and transform our inner lives. Drawing on her own experiences – talking therapies, medications, psychedelic journeys, and the spaces in between – Rose invites us to imagine a more expansive approach to mental health. What does that expansive model look like? And is it really necessary? Well – lie back on the couch, take a deep breath… and let’s find out.

Links

Rose Cartwright, Website.

Rose Cartwright, The Maps We Carry.

Rose Cartwright, Pure.

Pure – TV Show.

3 Body Problem – TV Show.