On episode 264, we’re sharing our sister podcast’s conversation about the double empathy problem. In Creating Neurodiversity-Affirming Schools, Emily Kircher-Morris and Amanda Morin explore a concept that challenges the assumption that neurodivergent individuals lack empathy, and instead highlights how misunderstandings happen between different neurotypes. They share personal stories, real-world classroom scenarios, and strategies to help educators bridge the communication gap with their neurodivergent students.

TAKEAWAYS

• The double empathy problem—what it is and why it matters in schools.

• How educators can shift from assuming misbehavior to seeking understanding.

• The difference between cognitive empathy (perspective-taking) and affective empathy (emotional connection).

• Why curiosity and asking the right questions can prevent conflict and improve student-teacher relationships.

• Strategies for making classroom environments more emotionally safe for neurodivergent students.

BACKGROUND READING

• The Double Empathy Problem (Damian Milton, 2012)

• Neurowild by Em Hammond – Visual resources explaining neurodiversity concepts

• Neurodiversity University Educator Hub: Join the Community

• Neurodiversity-Affirming Schools: Transforming Practices So All Students Feel Accepted and Supported - Order here

The Neurodiversity Podcast is on Facebook, Instagram, BlueSky, and you’re invited to join our Facebook Group. For more information go to www.NeurodiversityPodcast.com

Today, Emily Kircher-Morris welcomes Natalia Aíza, a therapist and advocate, to talk about the complexities of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD). They debunk common myths and misconceptions, and talk about what OCD actually is. It's important to understand the OCD cycle, be able to identify the various types of OCD, and understand how it often coexists with other neurodivergent conditions like ADHD and autism. They also talk about the impact of reassurance seeking, the nuances of Just Right OCD, and the challenges of school refusal. The conversation includes insights into how parents and therapists can better support individuals with OCD, and help them on the journey towards a better life.

TAKEAWAYS

• OCD is often misunderstood, with many believing it only relates to cleanliness.

• The OCD cycle involves triggers, obsessions, and compulsions that reinforce fears.

• Moral scrupulosity and harm OCD are common types that are often overlooked.

• OCD is distinct from generalized anxiety.

• ADHD and OCD can coexist, leading to unique challenges in diagnosis and treatment.

• Autism can complicate the presentation of OCD, requiring specialized understanding.

• Reassurance seeking can inadvertently reinforce OCD behaviors.

• Just Right OCD reflects a perfectionism that can manifest in various aspects of life.

• School refusal can be a manifestation of OCD, leading to avoidance patterns.

Episode featuring Eli Lebowitz

Check out our Neurodiversity University courses, including Strategies for Supporting Twice-Exceptional Students.

This episode was edited to add clarity to the subject of school avoidance or refusal, to indicate they aren’t exclusive to OCD. For some neurodivergent kids, it is a matter of a lack of accommodations and supports that make educational settings traumatic environments. School avoidance or refusal is a nuanced subject, and a deeper dive is planned for an episode in the near future.

Natalia Aíza, LPC, is a therapist, parent trainer, and advocate dedicated to increasing awareness and improving treatment for individuals with OCD. She co-founded Kairos Wellness Collective, a therapy center specializing in OCD and Anxiety Disorders, where she works to enhance competency among mental health practitioners and support individuals on their healing journey.

In addition to her clinical work, Natalia provides free psychoeducation and advocacy through her Instagram platform, @letstalk.ocd, helping to destigmatize OCD and promote evidence-based treatment. She earned her BA in Literature from Harvard University and an MA in Clinical Mental Health Counseling from Palo Alto University.

BACKGROUND READING

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Kairos Wellness Collective

The Neurodiversity Podcast is on Facebook, Instagram, BlueSky, and you’re invited to join our Facebook Group. For more information go to www.NeurodiversityPodcast.com

Today Emily Kircher-Morris welcomes Leah Kuypers, developer of the Zones of Regulation framework, to discuss self-regulation skills. They talk about the importance of emotional awareness, the practical applications of the framework in educational settings, and how it provides a common language for expressing feelings. Leah shares insights from her experience as an occupational therapist and educator, including the impact of the framework on students' ability to communicate their emotions and navigate their environments effectively. They discuss the need to move away from labeling emotions as good or bad, and explore practical strategies for implementing self-regulation tools in educational settings.

TAKEAWAYS

• Self-regulation challenges significantly impact students' well-being and success.

• The Zones of Regulation framework provides a common language for expressing feelings.

• All zones are valid; there are no good or bad zones.

• Visual supports can help neurodivergent students communicate their feelings.

• The framework is designed to foster emotional intelligence and self-awareness.

• Teaching self-regulation skills can reduce reliance on punitive measures.

• The framework can be adapted for various age groups and needs.

• Emotional intelligence can be difficult to articulate, even for older students.

• Co-regulation with adults can help children identify and manage their emotions.

• Understanding the neurobiological aspects of regulation can inform better support strategies.

Check out the Strategies for Supporting Twice-Exceptional Students course, and all of the others available now in the Neurodiversity University.

Leah Kuypers, MA Ed., OTR/L, is an occupational therapist, autism resource specialist, and educator, dedicated to helping individuals develop self-regulation skills. While working in public schools, she recognized the profound impact that regulation difficulties had on learners’ overall well-being and daily functioning. This led her to develop The Zones of Regulation, a systematic and practical framework designed to foster emotional and sensory regulation.

Since its initial publication in 2011, The Zones of Regulation has sold over 300,000 copies worldwide and has been widely adopted in educational and therapeutic settings. In 2024, Leah launched The Zones of Regulation Digital Curriculum, which has already been implemented in 40 countries. Her team trains more than 8,000 educators and practitioners annually around the globe, equipping them with tools to support learners in developing essential self-regulation skills.

BACKGROUND READING

Zones of Regulation

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The Neurodiversity Podcast is on Facebook, Instagram, BlueSky, and you’re invited to join our Facebook Group. For more information go to www.NeurodiversityPodcast.com